Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Parachutist Incident Report - Oct 2017


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 BlueSkyBri

BlueSkyBri
  • Administrators
  • 2,161 posts
  • Home DZ:Bit of a nomad. Freelance AFFI and FS Load Organiser, based primarily at Langar.
  • Jumps:>2k

Posted 19 January 2018 - 11:25 AM

Fella had an RSL but didn't have it attached. :-(

 

I don't understand why people don't have an RSL. I don't understand why people who have RSLs don't have them attached.

 

I'm grateful that the UK has a buddy check culture to avoid incidents like this.

 

And I'm grateful that the USPA shares their incident reports so that skydivers worldwide can pay their respects to the dead by learning from their mistakes. 

 

Be safe y'all.

 

Attached File  Parachutist_2017-10.jpg   258.88KB   11 downloads


  • 0

#2 frontfloater

frontfloater
  • Members
  • 18 posts
  • Home DZ:Cockerham
  • Jumps:1250

Posted 20 January 2018 - 02:43 PM

"I don't understand why people don't have an RSL".

 

I choose not to have one.  As an experienced jumper (1200+ jumps) I would always want to be in control of when I pull my reserve handle.  I've had a rapidly spinning mal which threw me completely unstable as I chopped and which could have resulted in a nasty reserve opening if it had happened instantly as with an RSL - I took a second or two to get stable first.  The recent increase in minimum opening height also gives more margin for that.

Plus a hypothetical example to ponder on - accidental canopy deployment while climbing out as floater at 15,000 ; main goes over the tail and the jumper is hung up ; cuts away ; now under a reserve at 14,900.  At best, facing a very long ride down ; at worst, facing extreme cold and possible hypoxia.  Would someone have the time, or presence of mind, or dexterity in that situation, to disconnect the RSL before chopping?


  • 0

#3 BlueSkyBri

BlueSkyBri
  • Administrators
  • 2,161 posts
  • Home DZ:Bit of a nomad. Freelance AFFI and FS Load Organiser, based primarily at Langar.
  • Jumps:>2k

Posted 22 January 2018 - 09:49 AM

I would always want to be in control of when I pull my reserve handle. 

 

Unless you were <1000 feet.

 

It's that old game... would you rather land with twists in your reserve? Or land at line stretch on your reserve?


  • 0

#4 nigelh

nigelh
  • Members
  • 1,772 posts
  • Home DZ:Skydive Empuriabrava
  • Jumps:5500+

Posted 22 January 2018 - 09:58 AM

I change depending on what i'm doing,

I'm on a Leia 69 with PD113r and have chopped with twists using the skyhook, but before doing so I made sure my body was as symmetrical as possible and didn't have twists on my reserve.

 

My last reserve ride my Skyhook wasn't attached, I had a broken line, reattached my skyhook and used it 


  • 0

#5 buzz

buzz

    UKS Verified Instructor

  • Verified Instructors
  • 4,171 posts
  • Home DZ:Tilstock
  • Jumps:3000+

Posted 13 February 2018 - 11:50 PM

"I don't understand why people don't have an RSL".

 

I choose not to have one.  As an experienced jumper (1200+ jumps) I would always want to be in control of when I pull my reserve handle.  I've had a rapidly spinning mal which threw me completely unstable as I chopped and which could have resulted in a nasty reserve opening if it had happened instantly as with an RSL - I took a second or two to get stable first.  The recent increase in minimum opening height also gives more margin for that.

Plus a hypothetical example to ponder on - accidental canopy deployment while climbing out as floater at 15,000 ; main goes over the tail and the jumper is hung up ; cuts away ; now under a reserve at 14,900.  At best, facing a very long ride down ; at worst, facing extreme cold and possible hypoxia.  Would someone have the time, or presence of mind, or dexterity in that situation, to disconnect the RSL before chopping?

 

I'm sorry, but I hear this excuse all the time and I still think it's bollocks.

 

Let me counter your "I want to be in control when I pull my reserve handle" argument with another more likely scenario.

 

You are on a skydive could be FS/FF/WS what ever your particular bag is, but for what ever reason you loose altitude awareness and before you know it you're at 2000ft, you panic and fumble the pull, have a second attempt and get the pc out, but now you're down to 1500ft, and wouldn't you just know it you get line twists and the canopy starts to wind up and it takes you a couple of seconds to cut away and now you're below 1000ft.

 

At this point if you had an RSL you would be under a reserve, probably in twists, but you would be under a canopy.

 

But no, you want to be in control when you pull your reserve, and it takes another few seconds for you to get stable, find and pull your reserve ripcord, the good news is your reserve deploys cleanly and opens on heading with out any twists, the bad news is you hit the ground before the slider hit the risers.

 

As an experienced jumper, I would expect you to be thinking about what would happen in the worse case scenario, because if you have twist at 3000ft and chop you have plenty of height to deal with it, but we all know that people get injured or die in this sport because of a chain of events not one single thing, having an RSL can break that chain, and personally I would rather land my  reserve in line twists than at line stretch.

 

As for the prem deployment scenario, cold is probably more likely than hypoxia, but at least they have a canopy above there head :-)

 

And by way of showing that I practice what I preach, here's a video of me getting off a spinning high speed mal on a Velo 96 and the resultant twists in my reserve, notice that even though the risers are uneven the reserve still flies nice and straight, I did have to stop for a breather when I was kicking them out though.

 

For info WL on main was 2.7:1 and on the reserve 1.7:1

 


  • 0

#6 p.d

p.d
  • Members
  • 161 posts
  • Home DZ:Langar
  • Jumps:3000

Posted 14 February 2018 - 01:09 PM

if you really wanted to be safe, you would be better off not jumping a canopy at 2.7 wing loading. Get yourself a nice big Fury and a reserve to match, and none of this would be a problem  ;-)


  • 0

#7 buzz

buzz

    UKS Verified Instructor

  • Verified Instructors
  • 4,171 posts
  • Home DZ:Tilstock
  • Jumps:3000+

Posted 18 February 2018 - 08:53 AM

if you really wanted to be safe, you would be better off not jumping a canopy at 2.7 wing loading. Get yourself a nice big Fury and a reserve to match, and none of this would be a problem  ;-)

 

That's absolutely correct, but I enjoy flying the canopy I have, and having assessed the risks, feel that having an RSL helps mitigate that risk.

 

That said, it doesn't matter what size canopy you have if your in the scenario I outlined above :-)


  • 0

#8 frontfloater

frontfloater
  • Members
  • 18 posts
  • Home DZ:Cockerham
  • Jumps:1250

Posted 18 February 2018 - 11:57 PM

"for what ever reason you lose altitude awareness and before you know it you're at 2000ft, you panic and fumble the pull, have a second attempt and get the pc out, but now you're down to 1500ft, "

 

That may be a more likely scenario than the extreme example I postulated ; but for me, it's still a long way from the real world.  For your scenario to have any probability nowadays, you would need to have multiple factors all ganging up ; highly unlikely.  It would involve a low experience jumper (to lose awareness that badly), on their own (otherwise they would see other jumpers breaking off), who hasn't been trained very well (to fail to read their altimeter and go 1000 feet past the planned pull height), and in addition either can't afford an audible altimeter, or completely ignored it going off.  That's quite a combination, although I concede, not impossible.

 

But I began by specifying that this is MY choice, not by advocating it for others.  At my jump numbers, I shouldn't be losing altitude awareness ; but even if I do, my audible will remind me. And because it's a Time-Out, it will do that twice - at breakoff height and again just below the newly raised pull height.  If it fails to go off, I have a visual reminder as I see the rest of the group tracking off - because I very rarely jump solo.  Again at my jump numbers, panicking and fumbling the pull are not on the cards - particularly since 2000 feet was the standard pull height for everyone in the 70s and 80s and isn't that scary.  So your scenario of opening at 1500 is very unrealistic too.   

 

And finally, I must agree with p.d. - your choice to jump a tiny main loaded at 2.7 is far more likely to put you at risk than my decision not to use an RSL.  It is entirely unnecessary risk.


  • 0

#9 Colin

Colin

    UKS Verified Instructor

  • Members
  • 3,122 posts

Posted 19 February 2018 - 03:12 PM

A RSL is a great idea and has saved many lives since Perry Stevens came up with it all those years ago. However, I have long believed that the "modern" RSL, as the next generation from the original Stevens Lanyard, is set up incorrectly and, in a small minority of situations can cause a problem. IMHO, we have moved on and the Skyhook is a superior piece of kit to what has gone before.


  • 0

#10 Colin

Colin

    UKS Verified Instructor

  • Members
  • 3,122 posts

Posted 25 March 2018 - 08:34 AM

Coincidentally, Perry Stevens, the man who started the RSL/no RSL debate all those years ago, died yesterday aged 84.

 

RIP Perry.


  • 0

#11 nigelh

nigelh
  • Members
  • 1,772 posts
  • Home DZ:Skydive Empuriabrava
  • Jumps:5500+

Posted 26 March 2018 - 11:09 AM

Here's my Skyhook cutaway, Leia 69 with WL 3.1

https://www.youtube....h?v=U21lfDHCwHA


  • 0

#12 Colin

Colin

    UKS Verified Instructor

  • Members
  • 3,122 posts

Posted 26 March 2018 - 01:22 PM

Thanks for that Nigel. I was feeling a bit post-apocalypse here on my own! 8)


  • 0

#13 CReWdog

CReWdog
  • Members
  • 240 posts
  • Home DZ:Brid

Posted 02 April 2018 - 08:34 PM

Yes I agree it is a superior bit of kit but it isn't cheap. I looked into having my rig retrofitted about 6 years ago (a 2007 javellin that is "Skyhook ready"). The only guy (then) who could do it in this country was Rick Boardman, he quoted me £450 plus the repack (the Skyhook parts delivered to the UK, customs duty etc paid were £400). i gave it some thought & decided against it. If ever I buy another new rig & it comes as a reasonably priced upgrade then I'll consider it.

Mick


Edited by CReWdog, 02 April 2018 - 08:37 PM.

  • 0

#14 Colin

Colin

    UKS Verified Instructor

  • Members
  • 3,122 posts

Posted 03 April 2018 - 05:03 AM

Much of the cost from third party manufacturers is the licence fee to UPT who (Bill Booth) invented it. Agree that it's not cheap but there's not much in skydiving that is these days.


  • 0

#15 BlueSkyBri

BlueSkyBri
  • Administrators
  • 2,161 posts
  • Home DZ:Bit of a nomad. Freelance AFFI and FS Load Organiser, based primarily at Langar.
  • Jumps:>2k

Posted 23 August 2018 - 11:26 AM

 

And by way of showing that I practice what I preach, here's a video of me getting off a spinning high speed mal on a Velo 96 and the resultant twists in my reserve, notice that even though the risers are uneven the reserve still flies nice and straight, I did have to stop for a breather when I was kicking them out though.

 

For info WL on main was 2.7:1 and on the reserve 1.7:1

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing your video. Have you had a look at the technique of twisting the risers to bring the line twists lower down? Have you had a go at this?


  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users